From:Brent Electronic:cdf959 -A-
Subject:RE: RE: RE: RE: fork cover bolts Date:Tue Jan 3 23:56:41 2012
Response to:16759
I agree with the value of this discussion but have witnessed it played out to disasterous results at AMCA Meets. A couple of judges arguing over a bike while the owner watches from the other side of the ropes; and then decides to never put his bike back out for display again. Yes, the AMCA relys on paperwork.... I have one Senior/Winners Circle restored bike that gives me great pride. The rest are original condition riders....guess which ones I enjoy most. If you want the trophy, play the game. Personally I believe the AMCA should have more judging seminars that focus on 'expert testimony' to establish 'grey areas' for certain bikes/models that would include no point deductions in those areas unless blatantly incorrect parts are used. Future 'paperwork' could redefine these areas. I have an unrestored low production number (CDF959) '46 Indian Chief that 'everyone' claimed had the wrong chainguard and fender light....until I found a factory production photo brochure showing these to be correct (this was a long time ago and ancient history now)....but you get my point.

Wow! Good answer Mutt, absolutely no arguments from me. I agree with everything you said. The bottom line is that the parts books are notoriously wrong and that production line practice during the run of a given model was not consistent. Our goal here is to make the restoration as accurate as we can. The problem is that the documentation that is available does not always agree with what we find on the original unrestored machines. But, guess what, the only thing that the AMCA will accept is factory documentation. Unless they see it in writing, it ainít so.
So, what are we going to do? I would really like to find a way to capture all the information you just posted and make it available for the next generations (Brent?, Dave?) , it is priceless and invaluable to those that want to preserve the history of these little bikes. An original, unmolested bike is only unrestored once, it should be preserved, documented, and saved as an example for future enthusiasts to learn from.
This topic got a little out of hand, but itís all good. Keith wanted to know what hardware he needed to fasten the fork tin to his í51. The answer is part # 2751, a round head ľ-28 N.F. x 5/16Ē recessed screw (single slot, not Phillips). The BIG question is what washers (if any) went behind those screws? Internal Star? Parkerized? Cad plated? Anybody got some factory documentation?

I am a AMCA judge also. We ALL are trying to learn here. But to learn, someone has to put forth the correct information gleened from original bikes over many years.
I restored a nice original 1951 for a fella in Irving Texas a while back. I believe I may still have the original fork panel screws with the captured lockwashers. The bolts on fork panels were only found on 1961 and later models.

Parts books are notriously wrong.

Take for instance the 2758 front fender mounting screw for the 1951 year only (which is also the front chain guard screw on the 60-62 models)> The book shows no lockwasher, yet when ya pull them off original bikes, they all have a captured external tooth lockwasher. I have some NOS in the H-D packages with the correct number stamped on it as well as the originals off that guys 1951.

The parts books show only a 043 (new # 2721, 12-24 x 1/2" round head) screw to mount the upper front fender bracket on the 48-50 models. The bracket isn't thick enough to be threaded, so what holds the screws in place? If ya look in the back of the parts books, you'll see the only 12-24 nut listed (7654, listed as a 12-24 x 5/32" x 7/16" hex nut) but when ya find original bikes, that's not what is on there at all. The actual nut is a 7/16" SQUARE nut threaded 12-24. I've done plenty of rubber band models and this is basically all I have ever seen on unmolested original bikes.

The upper seat spring bolts on the 48-49 models are listed as 3996. The parts book shows a square head bolt, which is correct, but the description in the back of the parts books say that the bolt is a 5/16" x 7/8" long fine thread hex head bolt. Just finished Les/Anna's 48. It has the original square head bolts. Guess what? They ain't fine thread. They are coarse thread. Also working on Tom/Sandra's 48 as we speak. It also has the exact same bolts, coarse thread. The nut is listed as 7752, (5/16-24 s 5/32" x 1/2" hex nut. But guess what? It ain't fine thread or 1/2" The nuts are 5/16"-18 NC x 1/4" thick x 9/16" machined hex.

Tha parts books all show the regulator mounting hardware BACKWARDs from what is actually on the bike.The parts books also show the front and rear chains as having no master link, which is correct, but everyone uses a masterlink. All the parts books show a 1214 (10-24 x 3/4" long fillister head screw for holding teh strap on the handlevers. Starting in 1958, the lever perches were changed. If you tried to use the screw specified in the books in your perches, they are 1/4" too short !!!!

The parts books show that a 59845-47 rear fender brace spacer on teh 48-50. It goes on the bike, but the parts book shows it on the left side of the bike, instead of the right side. It is used to move the brace away from the chain guard on all models.

The parts books don't show the H-D 10006 cable strap (zip tie" being used until about 1960, yet if ya look in the Pohlman photos, ya see them used as early as 1948.

The parts books show only a bolt used to hold the headlamp onto the nacelle, but low and behold, all the Pohlman photos clearly show a internal tooth lockwasher on both sides. Also the parts books list the bolt as 054B (1/4-28 x 7/16" hex head bolt. The headlamp is threaded 5/16"-24 !!!
None of teh parts books have the correct listing. The bolt is actual;ly a 5/16"-24 x 1/2" long with a 7/16" hex (not teh common 1/2" hex) Also, none of the parts books show ya the headlamp bolts at all or even mention them.

The 48-49 parts books show the brake light switch screws 2631 WITH the captured lockwasher, yet the descriptions in none of the parts books make a mention of this washer.This screw is also used on the front brake cable clip to lower tree, the headlamp wiring clip on the lower tree and the throttle cable clip on the magneto model cylinders.

The parts books list the horn adjustment stud nut as being 7634 10-32 x 1/8" x 5/16" , when in reality, it is 10-32 x 5/32" thick X 11/32" hex.

This could go on for a LOOONG time, but the point is given


I'm old, my memory isn't what it used to be, the "no washer" comment is one that Jerry put on one of the Pohlman photos for a rubber-band headlight nacelle. I have 5 lightweights (you built the cranks for 2 of them), 4 of them are TeleGlides that I built from piles of unmolested OEM parts, I removed fork covers from a bunch of them, some had washers, some didn't, most had a mixture, nothing matched. The bike that Keith is building is a '51 so I'm pretty sure it should have screws, not CP1038 bolts, the washers are still questionable. The early parts book does not show washers (but they may have been "captured" on the screw (I doubt it). The Pohlman photo for the '51 does not appear to have washers either. I'm an AMCA judge so I'm not trying to be a wise guy, I'm just like the good Dr. Pepper, we're all trying to learn here.

could someone tell me the part # of the fork cover bolts/washers for a '51 125?