From:Mutt Electronic:pigstye13 -A-
Subject:RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: National 1st Prize Winner Date:Sun Mar 27 14:36:25 2011
Response to:15577
Dave, I also have judged bikes at AMCA meets. Judging a bike for originality is just that. How close the bike is to the EXACT way it left the factory. This is the way I see it. You figure out how many GROUPS of parts are on a bike. The divide the groups into seperate parts. Then you can figure out how much of a point each piece is. But AMCA sees it different. I got to tell ya Dave, when a speedometer doesn't have a date and model stamp(s) on the bottom of it, it is a UNRESTORED part and a major part at that. Teh last time I jusdged at Dixon, we were judging a 1943 WLA. the bike was real nice, but the fella didn't restore the old speedometer, and we deducted 2 points for a unrestored speedometer.. When theback side of the horn isn't stamped, it too, is a unrestored part, because the horn left the factory on the bike, with that stamping on it. I've been thru piles of old photos and I have never seen a cad plated brake rod or brake operating levers. I have seen ZINC plated axle adjusters (not in pictures, but in person, as I have a pair of them NOS in the package, but they were PARTS COUNTER replacements in late 60's packaging, not parts that were used at the Factory. AMCA needs to have a secondary class for repop mobiles.
Some folks want to REALLY have an old bike, not something made yesrday. Some folks just want something that looks good and that they can ride any time they get the urge.
Some folks could care less and just want something to ride period. I know, I have all 3 types. But for the folks who want a REAL old bike, that has the very bare minimum of unoriginal parts, mostly hardware, they go thru a lot of time and money and effort to get these bikes RIGHT. I don't blame them. I have a 1955 B I built from NOS parts, cause I wanted an NEW old bike. Still got the pics of the NOS parts saved on the computer. I have customers that want bikes repaired and customers that go the full monty and want it correct. I try my hardest to oblige them.
On your theory about the pipe group. If the pipe on the 1954 model wasn't even in existance in 1954, it is TOTALLY the wrong part. Muffler/clamp (1/2 of 4 is 2) 2 point deduction. Again on the regulator. If the regulator wasn't even in existance on the planet in 1954, how could it possibly be even somewhat correct ? It's fun to have to strive for an objective and have goals. Maybe some folks that want to have their bikes judged go and do that, then they get their feelings hurt when they get a low score. But instead of them whining (since they are the ones that wanted it judged for what?) maybe they should take their score sheet, research it and change anything that is needed to get the required score. When someone advertizes a bike for sale to another, and the seller has a good reputation, the seller should know his stuff and stand behinf what he sells. Dave, If I could see the bike in person, I am certain I could fine more stuff wrong with it (only the right side is shown) The parts that are wrong could have EASILY been made "right" or found. 307 regulators are NOT that hard to find. The "correct" hanger could have bneen bought from Duane and I could have spotwelded it onto the pipe . No problem. The seat could have been sent to Heathers Leathers or anyone that does them and been covered in leather, then none of those parts would have been pointed.

Some people want the points system lower, so they can get a high score without having to do the serious work that is involved. I say poo-poo. Invest the time to do it right and you won't be left with your feelings hurt. It sounds like the AMCA way of juding is way off. There would have to be what, 50 groups of parts to add up to 100%? There ain't that many groups. SUPPOSEDLY, and don't quote me on this as it has been a while, but I understand that the rules say you have to use the "best available aftermarket parts, if the original parts are not available"

Post the "groups" listed on the score sheet and let's determine how many points should be taken off per group and we can reevaluate the 54. Also, the other Dave with the 54 please, post a pic of the left side of the bike.
At the Dixon meet before, Pete, teh chief judge numped my friends 59ST restoration 2 pointa for the wrong headlamp. My friend, Gary Kuafman, owner of the bike, called me and told me. I asked him to give the phone to Pete. Gary was smart and brought his manuals and wiring diagram. I spoke with Pete and Gary showed him the items and proved him wrong and Pete gave Gary his 2 points back. Gary scored 100 points.

I have a few original vinyl seat covers in perfect uncracked condition.Just look for them. As for the "black, long wearing Vinyl plastic", I'm sorry, but I just call it "rubberized vinyl", because when you have just the cover in your hand, the underside looks just like that. So I will go with the factory "black, long wearing Vinyl plastic" wording instead from now on. BUt the point is, is, the material came out on the 55 models, not the 54 models and it wasn't used only one year, it was used on MANY year models after 55



I think you're being way too hard on the points deductions, and even so, a Junior First requires 85 points and this bike definitely makes that grade. How do I know?

I was one of the judges! (Dave S. just emailed me to let me know). We definitely knocked him on the seat, and I can't remember what else. It would be interesting to see a copy of the judging sheet to see what we caught and what we didn't. (Note: that's why a Senior First takes at least two judgings).

The AMCA judging sheet put things into categories. Each category has a maximum deduction of 4 points. For instance, one category is "Seat / Seat Springs". Seat is only half that category, so max deduction for missing or "completely wrong" seat should only be 2 points. Correct pan, bracket, but wrong cover material is less than that.

"Exhaust system" is a whole category. Let's subdivide that into exhaust pipe/clamp and muffler/clamp. Missing or completely wrong muffler would be 2 pts. Model 165 muffler, but wrong year (wrap around hanger rather than welded hanger), would be less than that.

Regulator does not appear on the judging sheet, but I think it would go in "Generator / Horn / Drive Apparatus", where Model 165 regulator, but wrong year, would certainly be less than two points.

So, I respectfully disagree - I don't think these three items add up to six points, and I don't think all the bike's faults together add up to anywhere near 15 points.

Back to the Senior / Junior business. It is not unusual for a bike to get a high score on its first judging, then a much lower score on its second judging. Very disappointing for the owner, but it reflects the fact that the first judging team was not too smart, but the second team was smarter.

I admit that I'm in the "not too smart" category, but whenever I've been a judge, I've usually been the only one on the team that knows anything about Hummers. And wished that there was someone else there who also knew them.

If you bring a Harley VL or Panhead to Oley, and Dan Henley and Walt Curro go over it together, you're going to get excellent judging - they're both subject matter experts, one sees what the other one doesn't, and they can bounce questions off each other.

Back to the 1954 seat question. The AMCA has an appeals process where you can question a decision of the judges. It is preferred that you do this at the next judging, but I think you can still (this may have changed) submit a written appeal to the AMCA Chief Judge.

Like any other appellate process, you have to show that the judge was plainly wrong - by submitting factory (or other) documentation that supports your allegation.

Dave S. - what you got? (P.S. a vinyl seat that is not cracked is pretty hard to find these days)

Mutt - I'm looking at the March 1955 Enthusiast, I see "black, long wearing Vinyl plastic" on page 23, but I don't see ""the all new rubberized vinyl seat covering". Do I need reading glasses?